Amy Harris/Amy Harris/Invision/AP
The Martin Scorsese of street rap – that’s how Pusha T sees himself these days.
The Virginia Beach, Virginia artist – government name Terrence LeVarr Thornton – has reason to be. He first rose through the ranks of hip-hop in the ’90s and early 2000s in the group Clipse with his brother, now performing as No Malice. Then in 2010, Pusha T broke out as a solo artist and signed to Kanye West’s GOOD Music label. His latest album this year It’s almost dry was his first to reach #1 on the Billboard 200 chart.
Along the way, Pusha T caught up with NPR’s Ayesha Rascoe to talk about the making of the album, spurring competition between producers Pharrell Williams and West, and keeping a decades-long career in hip-hop alive.
The following interview has been shortened and edited. To listen to the audio version, click on the link above.
Ayesha Rascoe, weekend edition: I want to start with this Martin Scorsese comparison. Martin Scorsese is known for directing gangster films and you are known for rapping about selling cocaine. they also have called himself “Cocaine is Dr. Seuss.” What’s that parallel you’re drawing?
Pusha T: Basically, of course, there are times at Scorsese [filmography] where he ventures from gangster films, but for the majority, Scorsese makes a very particular type of film that we’re all culturally drawn to. And he does it very well. It’s iconic. I look at my rhymes and my content and my music and my discography the same way – I’m doing something very specific and I’m doing it very, very well.
I listen to you, I listen to Jay-Z, I listen [other rappers] – and I love the pun. I can feel the energy of it.
I think a lot of that is energy and aspiration. Rap – it’s a whole lifestyle. It’s a whole culture. Rap teaches you how to live and strive. Man, that teaches you how to dress sometimes. There are so many different ways and so many other things to take away from an album like It’s almost dry. And I would say striving is one.
Turn to It’s almost dry where does this name come from?
It speaks to art and creates a masterpiece. Everyone is always waiting for this masterpiece and you always have to tell them that it’s almost dry, it’s almost ready.
Half of the album is produced by Pharrell Williams, with whom you’ve been making music since the beginning of your career. The other half is produced by Kanye West, who was a big part of you [branching out] as a solo artist. How is working with both different?
I would say that Kanye and I feel very connected over very puristic, obscure hard samples – heavy drums. Very minimal. He likes to treat my voice like an instrument. He loves the Pusha T mixtape. He loves that, so he makes records that go heavily in that direction.
Pharrell is always trying to turn me into a character. He’s definitely great at composition and actual songwriting – cadences, flows, melodies. [He’s] Always trying to turn even the darkest or heaviest records into some level of hit, you know? That’s the difference between the two for me.
Was it some kind of competition because you had half and half? Was it fun?
It turned very competitive. And mind you, I’m really making this album between Miami, Florida and LA. I could get into the groove and make a record and fly to Miami to be with Pharrell, then fly to LA and be like, “Look what we did.” And Kanye will perk up and be like, ‘Oh, really? Is that what you do? Okay.” Boom — before I know it, he’s throwing me beats like, “Take this. Stop this.” Then I’m going back to Miami and I’m like, “He heard that — and he gave me that.” I just start playing the two energies off against each other all the time.
Then it got to a point where even for “Rock N Roll” with Kid Cudi, Kanye couldn’t find the drums he liked on the record. He said, “Man, take this to Pharrell. Tell him to put some drums on it. I want to hear his drums on it.” That was the only record they actually collaborated on. Aside from that, there were other people trying to find drums and I played it and Kanye came in and out. He would say, “What is this? Throw away all those drums, I don’t want to hear anybody’s drums on this record but Pharrell’s drums.”
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Kanye can be controversial, to say the least.
Very much so.
Does that ever affect making music, or do you ever pull him aside on a personal level and say, “Hey, ye – maybe back off a bit?”
We’re talking about everything that’s going on with him. I always listen to him, always talk to him and tell him my opinion. However, Kanye is simply who he is. He has a very strong personality. He just wants what he wants and he wants it a certain way. We definitely bump into each other or disagree on some things but I think we fit together because he knows I’m just giving him my honest opinion. When he talks to me, he says, “Man, when I talk to you, I can actually look at things outside of myself.”
I want to ask you about the song “Call My Bluff”. I know you talked about getting into the role. You watched Joaquin Phoenix joker Film a lot of work on this song. Tell me about this process.
You know, Pharrell just thinks that if I become a character, that’s the next step in my career. He feels like I’ve been the quintessential rapper all along, but I haven’t really gotten into a character yet. So we would watch joker and he’d say, “Man, that’s you! You laugh at things you shouldn’t even be laughing at. You are that.”
I say, “Damn, brother, that’s what you think about your man?” So we started actually watching the movie, right? And then we watched the movie in silence and he made music to the energy of the TV. It tells you what energy you should be in. So we continued to create his part of the album.
You have a long lifespan in hip-hop. What do you think the longevity of hip-hop artists is right now? Because there was a long time when rappers really weren’t popular that long and they got older and got pushed aside. But now it’s different, isn’t it? Everyone is wondering who will be the Rolling Stones for hip hop?
Well, that’s my goal. My goal is to see how far I can really take that in competition. I don’t want to just exist in rap or just make non-classic records. It’s funny that you mentioned the Rolling Stones as a group, but when you talk about it, Rolling Stone I just made the Top 200 Hip Hop Albums of All Time, and I’ve been on that list three times. I want to keep making albums that get on all these lists. If I stop making albums that don’t garner that kind of fanfare or attention, then I don’t want to make music anymore.